Charas Charset Generator: Plans.

[Bluhman]

   Have you ever wondered why people keep coming to the 'requests' forum for a Charset, and then they get told off that 'you probably can use the Charset generator to create that' by several members? Have you thought that they might've tried it out already, and perhaps were not satisfied with the result?
   Our generators are ****. And I definitely don't mean 'The ****', no. They're just plain ****. No offense, but unless you want your characters to look either extremely generic or utterly dilapidated, you're probably much better off just tailoring your custom characters to your needs by learning to sprite properly. You cannot get a good charset without actually learning how to do it yourself, it seems.

   Why, now, of all times, do I say this? Simply put, take a look at what people have done for RPG Maker XP: They created a very elaborate and consistent charset generator, and the results are beautiful. Unless you try and make the parts conflict on purpose, you can make some truly inspiring charsets. Just try it for yourself.

   Now, compare this to what our charaset generators can make. The number of what different charset parts genuinely work together is seriously limited. Why? There are two main limiting factors that prevent people from making charsets that look seriously awesome. First problem is that it seems nobody can decide which style to truly work on. Some items in our charset generator have black outlines. Other have colored outlines. Some use pillow shading, others have light coming from above (as it should). If you put the parts together, you're probably not going to get something that looks wonderful. Really.

   The next problem is definitely quality control. I'm sorry, no matter how economic you think you're being, you cannot simply MSPaint two black outlines onto the side of a character's head, fill them with solid color, and call it 'elf ears'. You cannot simply paint white blobs onto a default head and call it 'boredface'. You cannot take a default body outline and pillowshade it from left to right with two different-colored gradients and say that it's a 'Bicolor spacesuit'. Spacesuits are bulky. ****, why would you wear a Bi-colored space suit like that, anyway? It would make for a terrible superhero costume, and most certainly a terrible spacesuit... Anyway, If you want it to look good, you need to add stuff like shading, and not pillow-shading, goddammit. You also probably shouldn't just rip parts from other SNES games and try and fit them onto the default template... Because, you know, SNES games don't use RTP dimensions? That's real smart of you. Aside from shoddy shading and wretched ripping, another sub-problem dealing with quality control is correct alignment of parts. Now, take this with a grain of salt, but if you can't take the time to import your resources into something like GIMP, or Paintshop, or hell, even MSPaint again, to paste the part you've created over a template body and check that you positioned it right, you should not be uploading it. I really think the Charset generator has a serious quality control issue. Why are there different-shaped bodies all under the 'Charset-medium' category, when less than a tenth of the accessories will work with the body, huh? For example, the 'charas-male-prettycolor' body, by sephinaopal, is shaded GREAT, but I mean, its proportions are all off. Sorry, but how the hell are you even supposed to use this body with any sort of clothing? What the hell were you expecting? Hell, there's a daft_punk SUIT under the head category that should clearly be under the clothing one. That is just shocking. For pete sake, people, take some time to check the stuff being uploaded!!
   There is more than one way to skin a cat. This is no exception, because the charset generator is also a cat, clearly. There would be two ways to go about solving every problem I forsee currently with the Charset generator (and for that matter, probably all the other generators as well.) The first way would be to increase the quality control of submitted generator resources, basically cranking it up to 11. If anything doesn't seem to work correctly, get rid of it. Send, maybe, an e-mail to the resource creator and tell them how they messed up, and how they might be able to fix the part to get it looking better on an orthodox template. This would obviously encourage people to work harder and better to make quality resources for the generators, and discourage people who have no talent whatsoever. However, it might also turn off some skilled spriters who might've been capable of making some very pretty resources, so we might want to keep our quality control to a happy medium if we are to adopt this remedy method.
   The other method, however, is the extremist method; one that I'd like to take, personally. That would be to simply start over from scratch. Now, logically, it should be sensible to keep the current generator in place, just in case some people might still feel nostalgic or something, or might actually like the options given by the old generator. I think, however, that the new options that my proposed system offers will encourage some people to work on charsets a bit more innovatively, and overall produce charasets and other resources that are a lot more uniform, and appealing.
   So, what do we do with this new system? Overall, it will have much different features; some drastically different settings and options, to say the least. Now, compare the old part layout:
-Body
-Head
-Dress
-Hair
-Accessories
   ...To this proposed one:
-Head
-Torso
-Arms
-Legs
   Now, you might think that having less categories would be worse for the generator's effectiveness. Of course, what I forgot to put in there was sub-categories.
-Head
--Eyes
--Skin tone
--Hair
--Accessories (Hats, helms, masks, beards, makeup)
-Torso
--Low-layer (Tight shirts, T-shirts)
--Mid-layer (Jackets, tunics, blazers)
--Upper-layer (Armor, robes)
--Accessories (Capes, sheaths, belts)
-Arms
--Shoulders
--Arms (Sleeves and armor? See the VX char generator for an example of what I'm talking about.)
--Hands
--Accessories (Weapons?)
-Legs
--Low-layer (Tights, underpants, shorts)
--Mid-layer (Robe bottoms (might be consolidated into the torso part...) Pants, Armor greaves, skirts)
--Shoes
   As you can see from the expanded categories, this new generator will have a LOT of flexibility. And with proper quality control, some great charset parts can be created for generation purposes.
   Now, you might be wondering, “Where's the body selection?” Don't you think being able to choose body shape is a bit obsolete? Think about it. The body option in the charas generator just encourages people to make different-shaped bodies for the same category of character type. This is fine and all when you think about it at a glance; a male body and female body have overall similar proportions; similar height, bone structure, et cetera. Oh, wait, except none of the male clothes work properly on female bodies. And likewise, none of the male parts work on female ones (that's what she said lol). SO WHY ARE THEY IN THE SAME CATEGORY IF THEY'RE JUST ABOUT COMPLETELY INCOMPATABLE?
   Instead we have the Skin Tone option under the head category. This will encourage people to make, instead of completely different body shapes, to simply make recolors of the same body. This way, we can have more unique looking characters, while also keeping order with an identical body shape throughout. Guaranteed, each piece of clothing, and each item will fit properly in the charas hand, on their head, and over their bosom.
   Now, alone, this whole deal of new classification for each part and such won't really improve quality unless the quality control is done well. In general, what needs to be done is a decision on the overall style we want to go with; maybe Mac & Blue, perhaps? (I'd personally kill to have a M&B charset generator style) An option for the good old classic RTP style? Keep note that I'm talking less about the general shape of the pieces, but instead the shading and feel of them. Just look at a default RTP set next to a M&B one:

There is a clear difference; the RTP uses a pretty cartoony, bright, and sharpened coloring scheme, with fairly bold outlines, bright colors, and gaudy underlying designs. The M&B sets use a subdued color scheme, have much softer and seamless outlines, and have designs that are a bit more reminiscent of medieval Europe than crazy fantasy land. (and if I remember correctly, the RTP and M&B sets actually use the same pallete, so it's just more effective use of the same resources, so to say.)
   Now, think about how parts from both of those sets would look together. It could be done, since the two share palletes, after all. Would it work? Certainly. The two have a generally identical sense of proportions for their charets. Would it look GOOD, though? This is a bit more iffy.
   How would one get started? The first step would be to make some good body templates. Just looking at various charsets in the RTP and M&B sets, I can single out a few bodytypes we could have here:
-Male-Standard
-Female-Standard
-Male-Large (Think the RTP pirate, for example)
-Male-Taller (Take the standard, make him 1 pixel taller)
-Female-Taller (Same as male, but for the female body.)
-Male-Fat (Think the RTP fat guy)
-Male-Bodybuilder (The body of the one muscled guy in the Mac & Blue sets)
-Kid (Pretty self-explanatory. Might warrant a separation into male and female?)
   Just in case there's going to be a lot of skin on a generated chara, the template should be shaded WELL. It shouldn't just have two colors for the entirety of the body, like the current template bodies. Just take a look at some shading examples on some of the less clothed characters in the various sets I've got here for perhaps a reference. Or just go with your gut. Do what looks good... Though, there's a high propensity this will be the part of the project I'll contribute.
   What can possibly be done for the different resources is to cut off and reattach different parts of charasets (that fit the proper dimensions) onto the template, and modify them until they can form a proper article of clothing. For example, you see that one NPC is wearing a long-sleeved blazer underneath their sweater vest. This blazer could make for a very fine low-layer torso item! However, the central part of the blazer has been painted over by the original spriter with the sweater vest the original artist put there! What to do? Simple. Just edit in the proper colors in place of the area that covers up the blazer partially. With proper modification, a lot of different parts can be singled out.
   And of course, if you think that you can make custom parts that match up well with the overall style the generator is going for, then all the power to you, mate!
   For some parts that don't need to be re-proportioned to fit the body, a simple repositioning can be enough to adjust a part to fit onto another body type.

   Despite what this might sound like, I'm not suggesting a complete replacement of the Charset generator. That would be silly; the current one has a plethora of diamonds-in-the-rough that we could use for a new generator, and besides, I think a lot of people would be angry if we just decided to start over when we've been going strong for the past 8 years or so. Despite this, a new, more effective system, updated with some of the new artistic talent we've got here could really prove to make a highly effective character set generator for those who can't draw. Without the pesky problems of inconsistent art style or wonky positioning to get in peoples' way, it can be highly probable to make a orderly, but flexible character set generator.
(If this is what the whole off-line charaset generator is about, I'm gonna bang my head into oblivion for wasting an hour writing this thing.)

[fruckert]

I can't really say anything except for "I agree".
The Generator's don't really have that much good stuff in them, and even then the stuff that works looks inconsistent.

[MissingName]

(If this is what the whole off-line charaset generator is about, I'm gonna bang my head into oblivion for wasting an hour writing this thing.)

Your head is safe.

I agree, except who will be willing to do all these?  That might be a lot of work even for a big group of us.

[Bluhman]

I said that I would get to work... Um, eventually... On body templates. After one gets finished, I think it'll be pretty smooth sailing from there; all it will be is adjusting existing parts and accessories to conform to the created body templates, and if you have any spriting experience at all, I think it can be quite easy to do.

[A Forgotten Legend]

I think if RTP and Mac and Blue styles would be in the same category to label them?

A section where it would suggest recommended combinations based on how other people have used the generator could be interesting as well.  I think you are right, and that the generators need a facelift... or er... a new face.  I like this.  I can try and help out if I can.

[Bluhman]

Just a bit of a sample:

The one on the left is the old template chara, while the right is the new one. It's pretty crude right now, but it shows certainly some sophistication; outlines are now slightly more consistently colored (brown and black, instead of brown, black, and grey). Proportions have been changed heavily, and were based off of the shapes of the RTP thief and monk charsets. Among some of the changes are:
- Higher armpits
- More integrated neck and shoulders. Shading still keeps the effect of having a neck, though.
- Slightly higher crotch; more definition.
- Shorter overall
- Slimmer torso
- Eyesockets now present. Given that a few eye designs aren't 2 by 3 pixels, however, this might be a mistake.
What needs work:
- Might want to make the legs slimmer. It's really hard to tell if I want to do that, though, since every single damn RTP male wears hammer pants.
- More intricate shading will be needed.
- Other poses for directions other than forward.

[A Forgotten Legend]

It almost look like his arms go into his head, but that might just be me.  I think the legs could be skinnier as well.  The shading is a lot better then the current.

[Bluhman]

Trust me; It's based off of RTP proportions to the tee. When it's clothed, it looks a lot better.

[A Forgotten Legend]

Probably.  How many skin tones do you have in your plan anyway?

[Osmose]

If there is a neck, it looks like he's hunched over way too much. I would definitely move the head back up.

[Valiere]

I made a suggestion like this a few months ago but was told it would be too complicated to reprogram it.

The main thing with a brand-new generator is this: We must keep the riff-raff out. There's a lot of very low-quality items that completely clutter the current generator. There are a few people on this forum who have enough of an eye for shading, color, and animation to make good-quality items for the generator, but we can't have every Tom, Dick, and Harry pooping out amazing levitating two-color swords that nobody's going to want to use. Or if we do, we just need to have some people available to correct mistakes and keep it up to spead with the rest of the generator.

[A Forgotten Legend]

Agree on the people on staff to fix things idea.  That way regular users can have the luxury of uploading, but it won't be complete crap when it makes it to the generators.  Heck, I could probably help in that respect. =P

[Bluhman]

If there is a neck, it looks like he's hunched over way too much. I would definitely move the head back up.

Well, then, enterbrain clearly wanted their entire cast to be hunchbacks.

(Discount the blue haired guy on the far right. He would fall under the 'taller' category, since his head is positioned a pixel higher.)

[Valiere]

We don't have to ape what Enterbrain does. Let's make it our own.

[Bluhman]

We don't have to ape what Enterbrain does. Let's make it our own.

Well, okay, but 90 percent of the RTP and M&B clothing pieces fit to the shape that was created.

Let's think about the situation this way; the one I created is sort of a perspective drawing of the charset; a view of a person from a higher angle would probably not show off their neck very well. The current charaset template might have a nice, prominent neck... But where's its chin? Heck, if you place some of the clothing items on the current template, their head appears to be way too separated from the body.

And heck, look at the 2nd example I posted. Do they look all that hunched over to you?

How many skin tones do you have in your plan anyway?

People can create any skin tone they want, as long as it's distant enough from another skin tone. We probably should have, at most, two of each primary color (at most, two oranges, two blues, two greens, etc.) A lot of facial accessories I could imagine relying on skin tone to apply a degree of color to themselves (eyes, scars, hair, etc), but as a rule of thumb, people can generally make skin tones first, and then gradually others (or the same person who made the new tone), can recolor the other skin-based accessories to match it.