Pornwall

[DragonBlaze]

That escalated quickly.

[greenraven]

Lucas never responded to my question, nor did he respond to my PM. I'm starting to think there's something else going on here... :\

[Prpl_Mage]

You don't? You're supposed to.

Oh right, I have some powers and stuff. Good to know.

[Zerlina]

I understand why you're pissed Zerlina, but I don't think Daoman (or anyone here) was trying to see women naked when they didn't want to be seen. Daoman just made a bad joke in a thread about porn.

All in all, I believe that people should wear appropriate clothing for how much they want their body exposed, and we shouldn't 'try' to see more. **** does happen though and there are wardrobe malfunctions. I've accidentally (and unfortunately) seen half of my friends naked and some have seen me naked. The human body is a body, we all have one, and we shouldn't be ashamed or embarrassed if someone happens to see yours. On the flip side, shame to anyone who actively makes someone uncomfortable by gawking, leering, etc.

Hey DB, thanks for being very rational in what you're saying. I can see how Daoman might have meant the original comment as a joke, but then he's continued to defend the idea, so I feel like it's okay to continue debating with him.

Misogyny it is now? The bloody hell crawled up your ***, Lucas? I don't see misogyny

You don't see misogyny? Really?

Look at the following:

Seems more common for men to hope for wardrobe malfunction, but that's merely because guys tend to be more obvious about it, whereas girls tend to be hypocrite.

Tell me more about what "girls" tend to do, and how much you know about an entire gender.

A LOT of girls wear the type of clothes that make you wanna look at them cause they want you to look at them. 

You're right. When we dress up, we dress up for you, and not for ourselves. It's always about you.

Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations.

No it's not.

Don't go to a gay beach if you're uncomfortable with gay men leering at you.

(So women shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want men leering at them? Ok, gotcha)

Prettiness is such a curse, isn't it?

Yeah you're right. I should just be thankful men want to leer at me and yell what they want to do to me out the car window while they drive by. You're right, I take for granted how great it is to be afraid every time I have to walk home alone at night, or how great it is when a strange man tries to follow me home, then calls me a bitch or a **** when I won't talk to him. Pretty girls have rejected you and have had power over you before. They've denied you something you wanted. So they shouldn't be the ones who are upset. You're the one who should be upset, because they have it so much better, they have all the power, right?  So what are they complaining about? They should just shut up and look pretty and be grateful they look a way that makes men want to pay attention to them.

We dont like the fact that alot of girls wont even acknowledge us if were not attractive enough for them.

Maybe it's your attitude toward women they don't like. Or maybe you're not acknowledging the girls who would respond to you, because you don't think they're attractive enough for you.
Maybe instead of trying degrade women by saying the only reason they're not paying attention to you is because they're shallow, you should look at the subtle ways that misogyny leaks into what you say, and ask if there's a reason why some women are turned off by you.

[Archem]

This thread was better when we were talking about porn.

_{And censorship, I guess.}

[daoman89]

I don't feel like going through the hassle of quoting.

To Zerlina:
I'm nice to all girls (unless they're obviously being a bitch).  I open doors for them and all that fun stuff and I acknowledge everyone that comes into contact with me.  I wasn't necessarily talking about me, more so talking about what I've seen, heard and whatnot.  I'm very observant most of the time. 
I've been used by people before, but I don't let it bother me anymore.  I've limited my favors towards everyone (boys and girls) now so I don't get taken advantage of.  You don't really know how anyone really is on here unless you've met them in person.  Maybe the jerks on here are actually nice in real life, but just act like jerks for fun, who knows?  Some love to troll because they know nobody knows who they really are.  We've all seen the really ignorant and racist, etc youtube comments.  They say them cause they can hide.  Anyways, you can view me however you want, it doesn't matter to me because only my family, friends and I know the real me and that's all that matters.

Da-Blaze:
You right.  It was just a bad joke and unfortunately struck a nerve.  It seemed appropriate for the topic title, but oh well, I said it. 

Lucas:
My bad brotha. 

Archem:
So that's how you make a straight face through text.  Thanks man!

[Dr. Ace]

You don't see misogyny? Really?

misogyny [mi-soj-uh-nee, mahy-]
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

Seems more common for men to hope for wardrobe malfunction, but that's merely because guys tend to be more obvious about it, whereas girls tend to be hypocrite.

No hate, dislike or distrust of women. Poorly worded, I'd agree. Misogyny? No.

A LOT of girls wear the type of clothes that make you wanna look at them cause they want you to look at them. 

Generalisation, not hate of women.

Consent is very much so implied in a lot of situations.

No it's not.

Since when does looking at someone need consent?

(So women shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want men leering at them? Ok, gotcha)

So men shouldn't go to a straight beach if they don't want women leering at them? Ok, gotcha.

Yeah you're right. I should just be thankful men want to leer at me and yell what they want to do to me out the car window while they drive by. You're right, I take for granted how great it is to be afraid every time I have to walk home alone at night, or how great it is when a strange man tries to follow me home, then calls me a bitch or a **** when I won't talk to him. Pretty girls have rejected you and have had power over you before. They've denied you something you wanted. So they shouldn't be the ones who are upset. You're the one who should be upset, because they have it so much better, they have all the power, right?  So what are they complaining about? They should just shut up and look pretty and be grateful they look a way that makes men want to pay attention to them.

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Rape? Because ugly people get raped too. Attention? Ugliness comes with a price, so does prettiness.

Stop trying to find hate where there is none. I see miscommunication, poor wording and phrasing, but not hatred. If you see hatred here, I suggest you reread what's been written another time of day when you've cooled down.

[Archem]

I honestly don't see the tone or direction of this topic improving, so I think I'm going to rejoin in a more active way.

Many men believe they have the right to ogle women (and I assume the opposite is true), but nobody wants to be eye candy for the world at large (well, maybe some people do, but I'm assuming you guys aren't attention whores and porn stars). In a way, people are correct to see things this way. You can't bar people from looking at you and making judgements or thoughts. Creepy as it may be, if someone looks at you with a dirty grin on their face, you can't prevent it. However, as long as they maintain their distance and don't interact with you in a way you don't want, then you have the right to do something about it. Cat calls, creepy looks, and flirting aren't illegal, and that's fine. Touching, perverted activities (stalking, peeping, etc.) are not so fine, but those are typically punishable by law, so they're actually things you can be protected against.

Daoman said something that was a bit unfiltered in its honesty. He may not have meant offense, and it probably should have been viewed as an inoffensive (though somewhat in poor taste) comment. Instead, we have a bit of a mosh pit of opposing views that have nothing to do with porn, and that's terrible. It's related in the censorship department because we're walking a fine line of things like thought censorship (reminds me of a particular piece of fiction), self censorship, and generally being politically correct. I'm not a fan of that, and I'm sure that in the end, neither are you. I think the best thing for you to do, Dao, is to apologize. You've accidentally riled up a hornet nest, and while diffusing the situation is already beyond being a realistic solution, apology might help ease tensions. Don't try too hard to explain yourself, as a slip of the tongue might make your words seem insincere (and I urge you to be sincere).

Drace is infamous for his unwavering dedication to brutal honesty, and while I respect that, it's making things a little more tense than it needs to be. I don't want you to stop, but at least focus on the more important parts instead of spreading the tension so wide.

Greenraven is playing the sympathy card (whether intentional or not), and it's a weak excuse to defend yourself when latching on to an unpopular view. You should leave that baggage at the door and speak your mind more honestly.

Zerl, I think you might be overestimating the intent of these comments. They may be a little ignorant (perhaps even ^chauvinistic_{not misogynistic}), but the intent is not to be so. It's hard to tread water in the realm of sexism, and carefully expressing views is very touchy. Everyone's different, and generalizations are typically used when making a point or saying something, and (as we should all know) individualism and generalizations do not mesh.

Fruck, cool your jets. Your stance seems to shift a little here and there, but you're frequently going all in when you agree with someone, and it's a bit too heavy-handed. Regardless of intent, you really do look like a douche lord, and as my signature explicitly states, you should NOT be a douche lord. Words can carry a lot of weight, so please choose yours more thoughtfully.

Prpl, I'm ashamed of you the most. I bought you dinner, took you to see a movie, got you that lovely necklace, and you never called. You've stolen my heart, and then you crushed it. I don't think I can ever love again.
:I

Anyway, that's a lot of text. You guys deserve a pat on the back for reading it all. Please try to dust yourselves off, shake hands, apologize, kiss, and make up. Make up sex, I hear, is the best sex. Let's try to move right back into the wonderful world of sex (particularly on the internet), and talk about why the UK wants to put an end to it (or something like that). And hey, if you don't feel like listening to my attempts to help, at least I can say I tried.

[Dr. Ace]

Archem, I can agree with you on all but one thing. Daomon doesn't need to apologise for having his own opinions. Dao, just reread something before you post it, that's all it needs man.

[greenraven]

Greenraven is playing the sympathy card (whether intentional or not), and it's a weak excuse to defend yourself when latching on to an unpopular view. You should leave that baggage at the door and speak your mind more honestly.

For the record I'm not asking for any sympathy nor am I trying to "win" any "arguments". Zerlina told me to "think about it" and I was simply trying to say that I've done more than enough thinking. Nothing more nothing less. Then I was attacked for that without reasonable provocation.

This topic is starting to become rancid and twisted. Every word is being taken out of context and warped into something else.

[Cerebus]

That escalated quickly.

My thought exactly.

I guess my first comment was poorly worded indeed. I'm definitely not implying that all girls are the same, and by hypocrite I simply mean that they tend to keep it to themselves rather than shout at the guy across the street that he has a nice butt. But the main point here was that men aren't the only ones who do this kind of stuff.

My second comment wasn't supposed to be taken seriously. But given the tone of this thread and all the hostilities around, I suppose I can see why you'd see it as a mockery or something, so my bad on this one I guess. Now I'm not sure if the other half of your reply to this was supposed to be aimed at me or if you were talking in general...

You clearly don't know me if you think I'm a misogynist. And while I'd say "You're free to believe what you want about me" I hate being labelled as something I am not.
If something I say sounds hostile, than chances are I worded it poorly, or I wasn't serious.

And Lucas, I doubt anyone's thinking that Zerlina's argument is invalid based on her gender, really.

[Archem]

Archem, I can agree with you on all but one thing. Daomon doesn't need to apologise for having his own opinions. Dao, just reread something before you post it, that's all it needs man.

Perhaps I should have been more clear: I think it would be best if he apologizes for how his comments have affected the topic, not for speaking his mind. You are correct in that he should have thought twice about his choice of words, but when mistakes are made, we should apologize for them, even if our intentions were for the best.

[Prpl_Mage]

I don't even know what point you're trying to make here. Rape? Because ugly people get raped too.

I'm pretty sure the point is that men can be pigs. That women are displayed as something beautiful but most of all sexy. So people (see: men) feel that they are in the right by treating women that way.
And rape? Remember that men are the rapists. And women are the victims, pretty or ugly, 14 or 40. It doesn't matter
But every man acting like a huge chauvinistic douche, leering, groping, being creepy, pervy or touchy could one day decide to do some really bad **** because he might feel that "hey, that girl wants me to go over there and do her based on how sexy she's dressed after my 10 beers!". And that is a problem.


Other than that, Zerlina once again proved that we are pretty sloppy when it comes to wording our posts. Sometimes the comical approach isn't the best way to go when a thread have crossed the serious line. Some of us might have to rethink our values a little and others just need to preview their posts before clicking "post".

And Archem, I'm sorry I never called. There was just so much going on in my life at the moment and I just got out of a serious relationship, it was really stressful at work, my puppy died and the doctors gave me some bad test results. Then I dropped my phone and it broke and after fixing it I didn't have your number anymore. And when I finally managed to get your number again Ryan Gosling called up and asked if I wanted to come to his party and then I've just been to busy with police reports and damage control since that. Sorry.

[Zerlina]

I think what some of you guys are not really getting is that misogyny, sexism, and chauvinism come in many forms some more subtle than others. It's not just about being a rapist or saying you hate women, just like racism isn't just about joining the KKK. It's about subtle implications in the things that you say that you don't necessarily even think about, or even the fact that the reaction to someone who is on the victim side of the traditional gender power dynamic is to tell her how she should feel and what she should take seriously as if you should know or should be the authority, despite being in the position of privilege.

I've asked several times for you to try putting yourself in a woman's shoes, reliving her experiences, and understanding why she might take offense to what's been said, but rather than even attempt that, some of you have simply gone on the defensive and told me why you don't believe that you, personally, are a misogynist. You've refused to even attempt to see how what you're saying is anything less than acceptable language about women, because it is more important to you to tell us why you are not sexist, rather than to actually show us. This is not about personally attacking you, it is about showing you how the way that you look at the world might be unintentionally sexist, and might make women uncomfortable. Telling a girl sarcastically that it must suck to be pretty when she tells you that she is regularly harassed, saying "it's just a joke, calm down, don't be so pissy" when your joke is clearly one that is clearly upsetting, or denying that there is a sexist bone in your body right after you accuse all women of being hypocrites or shallow and uninterested in acknowledging unattractive men...these are phrases and choices that show a lack of respect and understanding.
 
(And no, holding the door open for women doesn't mean that you aren't sexist, just like being friends with black people doesn't make you not racist).

Things like leering that you might take for granted as harmless can really affect people. This website does a really good job of explaining things, and lists leering, staring, or oggling among acts of street harassment and explains why on other pages: http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/definitions/

This is a really helpful quote and explains why things like comments that men may see as compliments can actually be intrusive:
“While I’ve heard the argument that street harassment is actually a compliment – you know, because we’re supposed to be flattered that strange men are screaming at us about our asses – it’s really a super-insidious form of sexism. Because not only do perfect strangers think that it’s appropriate to be sexual toward any woman they want, but street harassment is also predicated on the idea that you’re allowed to say anything to women that you want – anytime, anywhere"

[Cerebus]

Fine. Look, I apologize if anything I said offended you. In now way was it my intention. Poor wording and unnecessary potentially offensive non-serious comment in a thread that was too hostile to begin with.

Can we all just get along, now?