Sikh characters: Anyone know of existing sprites, or care to create some?

[Kilyle]

The game I'm thinking of making is a long time away, but I was thinking over the cast and realized that I'd like to have an American Sikh (as a support character, a neighbor to the main character).  That is, normal American clothes, but with turban and untrimmed beard, always carrying a small knife, and whatever other visual markers are important to their religion.  If someone's already made these then please point me to them; otherwise, this is a request for sprite creation.

Note: This will be a non-combat, character-driven piece, steeped in drama.  Walking sprites, gestures, and expression portraits will be the majority content.  I want sprites in a style that allows decent gestures and supports the drama rather than contradicting it, so not the Super Deformed style of VX Ace's default set; the smaller 2k3 RTP style would be acceptable, but the larger XP style, which offers more room for gesture and detail, is preferred.  Mildly cartoony, not very cartoony; colorful, pleasant, not dark and definitely not the "modern 3d" style I've seen here and there.  More detail on style in my post about 3 posts down.

Anyway.

I don't actually know much about Sikhs, except that the many things I've read about them are laudable: The kids are taught young to defend themselves and to always carry their knife so they can; wherever Sikhs get into power they promote religious tolerance; they are peaceable people and most courteous in Western society (a report I've heard over and over); they're disciplined and showcase manly virtues that sometimes seem to be disappearing from our culture.  And also that a lot of people mistake Sikhs for Muslims due to the turban and beard, even though the two groups are quite distinct.

So it seems like it'd be neat to have a Sikh for a neighbor, and using a Sikh character would help promote a little cultural understanding, so I'd like to do that.  Setting is modern America (Western Washington in case that matters) at an apartment complex.  Having a small variety of possible faces and clothing styles/colors would be ideal, so I could choose a good one for the main Sikh character and maybe use some others for friends/relatives of him.  I'm mostly interested in a standing/walking animation, a bow (if bowing is part of their culture), sitting, maybe eating, and also some basic expressions (like these four: pleasant/neutral, happy/thankful, concerned/comforting, serious/alert).

If you want to do some female or child Sikh variants too then I'd love to see them.  I really don't know anything about what they might wear.  I assume girls don't wear turbans (though maybe I'm wrong) and that boys wear them after a certain age.

Also, maybe some item sprites for any religious items they are likely to have lying around the house (and the knife by itself, since even if it's normal to never let it leave your body, it might get knocked away or something).  And any little details you can think of to increase the appropriate atmosphere of their house, yard, or car.

I'm also open to any notes you have about how to pull off a Sikh character without making a fool of myself through lack of research; I intend to do more research over time, but your comments would offer a good starting point, I'm sure.

Like I said, this is for a project that's still in the planning stages and won't see physical form for a while (assuming I overcome procrastination enough to do it... if not, at least the community would have some new Sikh sprites).  So no rush.

[Fisherson]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikh These are the people you are speaking of? Interesting look...But I don't see how they'd make a RPG Party. Now I can see a member of the party being a Sikh or Sikh-like. Also your words make it hard to tell what style you want it in. ^^;

[Kilyle]

You're right, my description of which style to use is utterly useless; I'm sorry.  I've fixed up the description a bit and have made a better description in the next post.

This game may or may not use RPG Maker -- I have been thinking over which system would be best, and RPG Maker seems likely -- but it won't have any combat or "party."  It's entirely a character piece, kind of like a dating sim but not about dating, about developing friendships with different people and trying to learn their stories and help them get past the pain of their respective regrets/burdens.  Think like "To the Moon" but without time travel or anything fancy like that, and where it's more than just one character who needs help, and the individual stories are less complex.

Basically, you play a central character who has a chance to unlock different characters' stories as she plays through her own, and each side character offers good, neutral, and bad endings to their own story, and solving their problems in a good way gives the main character a new "argument" to use near the end of her own story, and you need a certain amount of the other stories unlocked to get the good endings for the game itself.

And yes, you pointed to the correct group of people.  Like I said, I don't know much about them, but what I've heard is good enough to make me want to explore their culture a little more and to add a character from that culture to my story.  Plus, unless I'm misunderstanding them, he might be a good guy to protect one character when her boyfriend tries to attack her -- so the Sikh character would seem to be the nicest guy until someone attacks, and then he stops the attack cold which is just what was needed at the time.

[Kilyle]

Okay, let's see if this helps:

My ideal styles are close to this example: http://multimouths.deviantart.com/art/RPG-maker-VX-ACE-SHADED-Sixela-Ushinatta-383658051

RPG Maker XP seems to make use of a style similar to this as the base, as in the XP-Style attachment below.  Here are some other examples of good ones: one, two, three.

I don't like the designs that have a huge head where the body is only as tall as the head (or shorter) and much smaller than the head in terms of overall balance.  So these ones annoy me: one, two.  While RPG Maker VX Ace supports other styles, the default styles seem to be entirely in this format, as in the Actor1.png attachment below.  And more caricature-style, with an even larger head compared to the body, I can enjoy in some things but isn't right for my project.

I also can't stand the modern 3d types, like this: http://www.rpgmakerweb.com/a/graphics/high-fantasy-main-party-pack-i -- that's WAY too far from my retro-loving roots.

I like the colorfulness of the older RTP sets, as with this and this.  I dislike the very bland, muddy, dark coloration schemes as with this and this.

I want a style that makes the details clear and appealingly detailed, not hard to make out like here or "fuzzy" like here.

The original 2k3-style RTP (similar to Final Fantasy VI, yeah?), which is smaller than the XP versions, is okay... and I can enjoy taller, thinner variants like this, though most of the ones on this post are too big.  These are nice.

For expressions, this style is nice.  I hope the game will eventually have expressions that are more varied -- I mean, the face not always looking the same way, but sometimes looking down in shame, or having the shoulders scrunched up in fear, or looking away in boredom, whatever -- but I expect to get regular, kinda cookie-cutter styles right now, and they can still look good.

Lastly, these are neat, but since I'm not after combat but after useful animated sprites, I'm not sure if versions like this would be useful except as character-trait pages or something.

[Prpl_Mage]

Still not very clear what style you actually want them in. But I'm gonna guess the answer is "something like the XP sprites".

And you mention that you don't know much about Sikhs, remember that when you create the character. Although you might want to include a lot of Sikh things into the character and really pinpoint that he's a Sikh there's a risk that you instead make him into a stereotype. And the problem with stereotypes of minorities like this is that people who play the game might never even meet a Sikh on their own and base their whole understanding of that rich culture based on this character. So yeah.

Also, the last ones you posted are from pokemon hg/ss, just so you know.

[Kilyle]

Pokemon, huh?  I've always favored Digimon, so the Pokemon games have only crossed my radar as internet memes.

Still not very clear what style you actually want them in. But I'm gonna guess the answer is "something like the XP sprites".

Yeah, you got it.  The first four links (the Deviant Art one and the ones labeled one, two, and three in the very next paragraph that starts out "RPG Maker XP") showcase the style that appeals to me, with a bit of wiggle room.  Most of the others try to deliniate the style I'm after by pointing out bits that I don't like.  If a person is interested in making sprites for me but can't do (or isn't practiced in) the XP style, I'd accept the older 2k3 RTP style (similar to sprites from Final Fantasy VI (aka III)) or the "tall and thin" style here.

And thank you for the reminder about stereotypes.  I intend to do a fair amount of research at some point and try to make a realistic character.  Though even if I end up making a stereotype, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, as exposure to unusual cultures does have to start somewhere, exposure to positive and neutral Sikh characters is important given the "turbans = terrorists" mindset these days, and I don't think I've seen any Sikh characters in the stuff I've watched or read, which means there aren't very many existing characters whether stereotyped or not.  It takes time for an underused culture to get enough exposure to start getting realistic portrayals.  So though I certainly intend to do my homework for this one, I'm not worried either way.

[Prpl_Mage]

Alright, I'll probably give it a go some time this week when I've played through Rahls game. See if I can adapt to the style to present you with some versions.

Good that you know what you're getting yourself into. Regarding if females wears turbans, this is nor the case. They do wear scarves though like so many women in other cultures do. Also, few Muslims wear turbans, it's kinda weird that US media likes to portray them with turbans. Also, most prominent feature of Sikhs are the surnames. Males receive the surname Singh and females get Kaur (or something close to that) after getting baptised. Also, the religion is very much like the Hindu religions but with monotheism and without the caste and gender hierarchy.

[Kilyle]

The surname thing is interesting.  I think I read a day or two ago that the female one means "princess".  Hindu-like without caste, huh?  Sounds like they favor equality, which is great.  I was most impressed with the religious tolerance bit -- I can't think of a single country where Muslims got in charge and religious tolerance was a characteristic of their reign, but apparently it's characteristic of Sikh leadership.

Didn't realize that turbans weren't characteristic of Muslims.  Where'd we end up with insults like "diaper-heads" anyway?  I guess it's way too easy to just lump all foreigners from a certain area or with certain superficial similarities together and paint them all with a broad brush.  Sad.

I also heard that if they draw their kirpan it had better draw blood.  My dad says "Never ask to see their sword" but I think of it as a way of ensuring that the kirpan is treated like a serious obligation -- kind of like "Never shoot (or aim a gun) at someone unless you mean to kill them" which is a way to avoid treating guns like toys (with the resulting accidents).  Sikhs are apparently supposed to have the courage to defend anyone who is being oppressed or persecuted, which intensifies my impression that they'd be good to have as neighbors.  Oh, and they don't actively seek converts; this part reminds me of Stargate SG-1 where the... Ancients?... were not supposed to help anyone pass on to the higher reality, because if they were ready for it they could do it themselves and wouldn't need coaxing or guidance.

When you say the females wear scarves, do you mean like Saris?  I've seen them sold here and there, and women wearing them in pictures and such, and so many of them are so beautiful, and some like tapestries.  I've thought about buying one myself, even though I don't wear dresses or dress-like things.

[Prpl_Mage]

India, India is a country where a Muslim leader got in charge and didn't act against non-muslims. Akbar the great during the 16th century.

Turbans are widely used in many cultures where people are Muslim yes, and Muhammed is said to have worn a turban. However, this is most likely since a turban is a sign of power or knowledge. Rich people tend to wear them for example to mark their status. Smaller hatlike headgear is used nowdays. However, the martyrs of Al quida shown in their videos tended to wear turbans to justify their actions as one with Islam. Kinda like how christian groups would hold a cross or a bible when doing something immensely stupid. In India and other countries the turban is more of a formal wear and offered to important guests visiting your house (such as the father of your daughters future husband), Stuff like that. I think that Sikhs have the right to wear turbans however, and not letting them would be discriminating.

Well, you are kinda right about the kirpan. Sikhs are never supposed to draw it, like ever. Carrying a knife and not using it is part of the discipline of their belief. Some countries don't allow them to be worn, others allow them to be carried if the blade is short(I think the rule here in Sweden quite specifically states that a knife cannot be longer than 6cm). And like you mention, they do not seek converts like most esoteric religons. You seek them out when you are mature enough to understand the teachings. There is no point to it otherwise.

And no, I'm sorry I didn't mean saris. Saris is more like a tabard or so. I meant something more like a shawl, I might remember this wrong but I believe that someone told me that it is the same type of cloth that men use for theirs. Only that the women mostly tie their hair up in them or have them draped around their heads like most other women do(like greek women or whatnot).

[Kilyle]

I think Akbar's the one I read skimmed about yesterday while doing a little research on Sikhs.  He sounded kinda neat (and made me wonder why "Akbar" was a name I had previously heard only in parodies, as the butt of jokes, like in 8-Bit Theater).  Wasn't he a surprising aberration from the normal persecution?  Though my skimming, being skimming, was not that thorough.  Are there any more modern examples?

So, Sikhs wouldn't draw the knife even for combat, like serious combat?  I was reading about a handful of them holding back an army of hundreds for a few hours -- did they do they entirely without weapons or something?  (It reminded me of the 40-1 battle in Poland, where a small group of men held back the Nazi forces (about 50 Nazis to each Polish soldier, despite the Sabaton song) for like three days before finally surrendering what was left of their forces (except for the captain, who killed himself).  Love hearing stories of the kind of manly courage it takes to stand there against all hope and reason, just because it's the right thing at the time.)  Also, I heard that in some schools they're allowed to carry it if it's glued into the scabbard so it can't be drawn, and if I were in charge of the religion I'd say that wasn't sufficient any more than "You can wear a cross if you melt a block of lead around it so it's pretty much a block and doesn't look anything like a cross anymore."  Though I do understand the need to have some standard of school safety, so I'm not sure what a better compromise would be.  It's still puppet theater, as it were.

Would a Sikh study martial arts?  If so, which kind?

[Prpl_Mage]

I'm unfortunately not well versed in the religious affinity of past Indian rules or what they promoted. I simply remembered that Akbar was one of the more tolerant rules and he ruled somewhere during the Mogul era. There's also the example of Spain after the Muslim invasion, they allowed both Christians and Jews in the country and promoted unity. And when the christians finally threw the Muslims out, they also threw the Jews out. Likewise, Jews and Christians have been present in most Muslim countries until the aftermath of the second world war when the UN ordered Brittain to hand over part of Palestine to become Israel and a war started that is still going on. It became almost impossible to be Jewish in the middle east without  living in Israel after that point.

As I remember it, drawing the kirpan is supposed to be the very last resort in any given situation. If someone tries to kill you, you will first try to persuade him not to, if this fails you will try to protect yourself with your body alone. If this also fails, you can draw your blade to defend yourself. The teachings do not promote violence in any way. Respecting everyone does not leave a lot of space to allow you to hurt people without reason. There have of course been events in history where Sikhs have hurt other people and motivated it by saying that "I was only defending myself" or "they attacked us when they spraycanned our golden temple so I just protected it", very much like other religions and cultural beliefs you are not supposed to attack first, only defend yourself. And yes, I think there is a story about a Sikh army defeating the enemy army without even drawing their swords. So they won the battle and no one was killed. Might just be a religious myth but still.
Tell me more about your reason around the lead block around the cross. If you belong to a religion where you are generally not allowed to draw your blade, and school rules says you can't draw your blade - why would it be a problem that the blade you carry to school has been glued into the scabbard or tied up? It is still a blade, it is still the symbol it has always been, with the difference being that you can't accidentally drop it or have it taken from you as easily. After all it is meant to be a religious symbol, not a weapon.
However, why ban a knife when Americans are allowed to carry guns? Makes little sense. However, with the limited knowledge Americans have of other religious practices they might just confuse every Sikh with a knife for a deranged terrorist and shoot them.

I'm sure a Sikh can preform any kind of martial art as long as it's centred around discipline and honour. Most martial arts are about defending yourself rather than hurting others anyway.

[Kilyle]

I guess I didn't well understand the reasoning for the knife -- it seemed like it was taking away the main use of a knife in favor of it being just a symbol, like a figurehead "king": people act like he's in charge but it's a farce, because others are in power.  Apply that principle to a religious symbol and it seems like it'd be offensive, which is why I reacted to it (though my cross idea isn't a very good analogy; I couldn't think of a better one).  But you explained it enough that I think I understand it better now.  It's great to see a group with a firm grasp of appropriate use of force without the extreme of either utter doormat pacifism or go-ahead-and-touch-me-I-dare-you petulance.

I don't have much info on school stuff (I was homeschooled), and I do understand that a certain level of "safe zone" has to be maintained just to avoid incidents.  I am not sure where the line lies and I'm not sure where the line ought to lie, because there's no age limit to the Second Amendment -- which is to say, kids/teens can carry guns around much earlier than they can drink, maybe even earlier than they can drive.  Though I think regulations in various places restrict that on a more local level.  And at some point Americans decided that guns and schools don't mix, and since kids nowadays certainly couldn't be trusted to take guns seriously enough to make accidents rare, I'm pretty sure that's a reasonable restriction on our rights.

The rest of this conversation is making me want to go look up the history of the middle east and get a better idea of what has gone on there through time (not least because I don't think I had connected "Mogul" with that area in my head).  I only really started paying attention to it back in, what, 90's maybe, when some of the news had our soldiers heading over to, what, the Persian Gulf or something -- Desert Storm?  Since then it's seemed to be one battle after another, big or small, until I gave up paying attention and have gotten my "news" mostly from Facebook posts (which are hardly impartial and I should probably pay less attention to them).  Though, to be fair, Facebook posts were also what led me to learn more about the Sikhs, so they have their uses.

[Prpl_Mage]

Hey sorry, I'm kinda swamped right now so I haven't been able to give this one a go.

[drenrin2120]

I tend to forget about the Moors. It was always glossed over in my history course, but also always seemed like an interesting point in European history, especially being so close to the collapse of western Rome and the formation of the Byzantine empire.

[Kilyle]

Hey sorry, I'm kinda swamped right now so I haven't been able to give this one a go.

I's patient.  Remember, this project is nowhere near ready to start on the actual programming and working model side of things.  I'm still working on the "musing all the bits I'm going to use" stage, working up toward the actually writing down scenes and such stage, which I plan to do concurrent with NaNoWriMo rather than do an actual novel this year.  So I'm glad to know at least one person is interested in helping me, but no rush.

I tend to forget about the Moors. It was always glossed over in my history course, but also always seemed like an interesting point in European history, especially being so close to the collapse of western Rome and the formation of the Byzantine empire.

I'd love to see Extra Credits' new history vids go into the Moors/Byzantine stuff at some point.

Meanwhile, it'd be nice to see a wider variety of historical sprites.  I haven't been in the spriting world for a few years so maybe it's changed, but at the time I was running across lots of stuff from existing games, some urban and futuristic/sci-fi and medieval, a few cowboys and indians stuff, maybe some cavemen, but not a lot that hit at the areas of history that would be most interesting to explore, which is to say those ones whose names might be a bit familiar but who in general aren't known/understood by a lot of people.

Heck, just having some context for Othello would be great.