Charas Community Project Thread

[SaiKar]

Originally posted by aboutasoandthis

Originally posted by SaiKar
The problem with a community project is that everyone wants to work on the story instead of doing the work. So the few talented artists and mappers and coders get told what to do all the time. They eventually become resentful, decide they don't need this crap, and go do their own thing.

Just sayin, if you want to do this, you'd better have some sort of plan to avoid that from happening.

That's like saying the storyline requires no work. This is from a guy who can sprite, can map, and can code his *** off. The storyline is the thing that requires the most work. A game has no hope of getting finished if the story is not done, and done well. Who ever said that those working on the story cannot do other things like code as well?[/B]

Don't take this the wrong way, but that old quote about things being 10% inspiration 90% perspiration is true. It's not that the story takes no work; it's that its easier to do the story since you can just think of crazy ideas in the shower and brainstorm with your friends. You never run into a storyline not working correctly (like the code can) or the storyline just not looking right after spending an hour on on it (like spriting can) or a storyline being just too hard or generally not any fun (like playtesting can reveal).

Storyline is the stuff of dreams, but when it comes to actually trying to take those dreams and make them into reality, things begin to bog down. Plus, in every project I've ever worked on, I've had new storyline ideas while doing the code. My original scopes were always, without exception, too limited. For example, I might have a new idea for a subquest that wasn't listed in the script and just add it in. Because I work on my projects solo, that's no problem. But if you try to do that, that means new people making new maps, sprites, code. You have to make allowances for that sort of development.

[Phayre]

You never run into a storyline not working correctly (like the code can)

I've had moments where I'm about 50 pages into a leg of a story, then suddenly realize that something waaaaaaaaaaay back at the beginning doesn't make sense, and I get to either scrap it or do massive, massive editing.

or the storyline just not looking right after spending an hour on on it

After spending two years on a novel, I can safely say that this is what editing is all about. Tweak, tweak, cut!

or a storyline being just too hard or generally not any fun (like playtesting can reveal).

An idea can turn out unwieldly or hard to pull off, and the finished product often appeals only to the writer, sometimes not even to them.

The hard part about story is not thinking of stuff. It's figuring out how to implement it, to pace it, how the dialogue should be, et cetera. You can't just think of something wacky in the shower and call it a story.

On topic, I'm also willing to try and help with spriting. My skills aren't superb, but I'd like to get better.

[aboutasoandthis]

Originally posted by SaiKar

Originally posted by aboutasoandthis

Originally posted by SaiKar
The problem with a community project is that everyone wants to work on the story instead of doing the work. So the few talented artists and mappers and coders get told what to do all the time. They eventually become resentful, decide they don't need this crap, and go do their own thing.

Just sayin, if you want to do this, you'd better have some sort of plan to avoid that from happening.

That's like saying the storyline requires no work. This is from a guy who can sprite, can map, and can code his *** off. The storyline is the thing that requires the most work. A game has no hope of getting finished if the story is not done, and done well. Who ever said that those working on the story cannot do other things like code as well?[/B]

Don't take this the wrong way, but that old quote about things being 10% inspiration 90% perspiration is true. It's not that the story takes no work; it's that its easier to do the story since you can just think of crazy ideas in the shower and brainstorm with your friends. You never run into a storyline not working correctly (like the code can) or the storyline just not looking right after spending an hour on on it (like spriting can) or a storyline being just too hard or generally not any fun (like playtesting can reveal).

Storyline is the stuff of dreams, but when it comes to actually trying to take those dreams and make them into reality, things begin to bog down. Plus, in every project I've ever worked on, I've had new storyline ideas while doing the code. My original scopes were always, without exception, too limited. For example, I might have a new idea for a subquest that wasn't listed in the script and just add it in. Because I work on my projects solo, that's no problem. But if you try to do that, that means new people making new maps, sprites, code. You have to make allowances for that sort of development.[/B]

This statement still doesn't really make sense. As you have said, when you are working on a solo project, and you suddenly come up with a new idea to add you simply add it. It's much harder to add something like this when you are working in a group.

Why would you do this in a group project though? A group project shouldn't have these ideas thrown in. That just shows disorganization and as you have said, messes up the project.

You're also speaking as if the game will require a massive amount of coding, spriting, and mapping... Unless you are aiming high, a game does not require this. This game shouldn't be some MMORPG with a battle system that rivals a Playstation 2 game, an art director, and a million sprites. It should just get done. I wasn't here long enough to know about it, but if this contest is on its third try then it shouldn't be huge.

What were the first two community projects like? Why exactly did they fail?

As for the storyline business, I agree with Phayre. I would also like to apply for a main coder position. I want to see what Saikar is talking about.

[A Forgotten Legend]

Originally posted by Phayre
I'd like to help with a story. I'll have to get MSN.

...you do know that if you have Yahoo Messenger, you can talk to anyone with MSN...

[Phayre]

...Well, now I have both. So nyeh.

[SaiKar]

Originally posted by aboutasoandthis
What were the first two community projects like? Why exactly did they fail?

I wasn't involved in both myself, but here's essentially what happened:

The first one was Alex's plan to be part of a contest between every major RPGMaker website. Charas's entry was massive in scope and in initial reaction. Carmen lead it, I believe. She assembled a crack team of story-writers, spriters, and coders out of available people and they all worked together decently as a group. However, at some point, Carmen announced that the participation from the rest of Charas was not satisfactory and that the Community Contest team was officially going private. They took their work and their ideas and left Charas as a team to work on their game without being associated with Charas directly. To the best of my knowledge, at some point after the split the entire thign collapsed.

More details about that here: http://charas-project.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6818&forumid=39&catid=9


The second one was a joint effort by Moose and Robotam to revive the spirit of the community game, as it was still a good idea. Much like before, a lot of people said they wanted to do it, and much like before, a lot of them dropped out quickly. It restarted like a year later with rougly the same disasterous results. They got a story done (that, quite frankly, didn't interest me at all to want to work on the game) and a few custom sprites, but little else before it collapsed again.

This is a good, but long, thread about that try: http://charas-project.net/forum/showthread.php?threadid=8491&forumid=39&catid=9


I'm not trying to tell you guys you shouldn't do this. Far from it. I'm trying to learn from the mistakes of the past so that you guys have a better chance of actually making something, anything, by the end.

[Cosmos]

But... if the whole team is gathered.. as in ppl on the artist side, or programming side.. they have to wait til at least a good amount of the story is done before they can attempt to do anything. If everyone has their places before the story.. then they'll get bored and say screw it. Least it would be better to come up with something and then see if people are interested before getting to the serious part.. Least that's what I think.. <<

[coasterkrazy]

If this does get off the ground and things get moving, count me in along with Dren in music. Also, I can easily convert MIDIs to MP3s of various sorts (SNES style included) if anyone cares to have an MP3 version.

[CoolZidane]

I'd also like to pitch in my musical contributions if desired.

[aboutasoandthis]

I'm gonna read through the second thread especially to try to find the cracks in it.

If I had to guess though, the main problem with the past Community games would be the focus on having custom stuff...at all.

 Originally Posted by SaiKar
 

However, at some point, Carmen announced that the participation from the rest of Charas was not satisfactory and that the Community Contest team was officially going private. They took their work and their ideas and left Charas as a team to work on their game without being associated with Charas directly. To the best of my knowledge, at some point after the split the entire thign collapsed.

This part jut irks me.

Post being edited for proposition. Stay tuned.

-------------------------------

I’ve taken the time to read through the twenty-six-page thread. Here’s my analysis on the past community project and why I think it has failed.

To start, there was too huge an emphasis on the custom aspects of the game. From experience, making a completely custom game without shear dedication is ludicrous for this site. The thread wanted to have a custom menu system, custom chipsets, custom charasets, a custom interface, custom monsters, and possibly the inclusion of Dragonblaze’s *not done* battle system. I can only name a few people who can create custom sprites and still visit. I’ve been making my own CBS and CMS, and it is very time consuming.

The storyline wasn’t really done. SaiKar was only half-right. The basic scenario was done. There was still no dialogue. There was no script. There simply wasn’t a plan.

In both projects, there was too much criticism on the resources provided. I think that a new project idea should take what is already there and fix it.

There was no music direction. It was basically “YOU MADE A MIDI?!?! THIS IS AWESOME!!!1111!!!!1!!!!!” I remember seeing a really nice question asked by drenrin about what sound and texture the game should use. I didn’t like how Osmose and Robotam were saying “make a town midi, an evil midi, etc.” I think that if this could have a single, strong soundtrack that covers all emotions and events, it could help build a strong base for the game.

People were changing their minds about ideas. I was a little appalled when Robotam suggested that his storyline would replace Osmose’s, only to have people cheer. I’m not even sure that anyone knew what the storyline was about. That’s just wrong…

My Propositions:
-We focus on preexistence. We take what we already have and focus it.
-The storyline will be completely finished. This at least includes the basic scenario, a timeline, and a script.
- I we should completely finish the soundtrack second, after the storyline. It’s helping me create my game a lot. I’m also hoping that the soundtrack will use mostly preexisting songs, edited to match the new game. We take what is there, add to it, and focus it to make this new game.
-We use a preexisting interface, such as the DBS and the DMS. I wouldn’t mind using the basic Metal Tears if Meiscool lets me code on it. It can’t have anything that takes more than a week to code.
-We use a preexisting art direction and sprite direction. The storyline will be edited to fit this style of this direction. Nothing custom or demanding will be created. We also use someone who is good with colors and depth to recolor everything to match one style.
-We use Osmose’s storyline as a base. I thought it was kinda lame, but it is a done scenario and it did give me ideas to make this a done project. I wouldn’t mind editing this to fit an idea I’ve had for a while.

Of course, this is Shady Ultima’s thread. It’s his and the community’s decision. Good night.

[Shady Ultima]

I think the big problem with previous efforts was there was only one person per job. One spriter, one music person, etc. That leaves a LOT of responsibility on that person. I think having a team to do each individual part will work a lot better, as then the team can break up the jobs into smaller bits for each individual member.

[drenrin2120]

I agree with Aboustaso, we need to not aim so high and try to do everything custom and everything original and cliche 'cuz we're not fuckin' Square Enix or something, we're just a bunch of people who like RPGs. We need to aim for simple.

[Shady Ultima]

I agree as well. Custom is great. The more custom stuff the better, but if I put dren in charge of music for example, and he finds this really great battle song, it'd be fine to use that.

[drenrin2120]

Yeah, but if groups worked together rather than by a leader, that'd work good. So if CK and CZ want to help out, it'd be more of a group effort. Plus I'm sure we've all got other things we're doing, whether it's another RM Project or some outside project or activity.

[Prpl_Mage]

But our customs do not have to be special do they?
As long as they are custom they will give a certain style that will probably fit through the game.
I mean we could use the RTP b-chars and yet do teh lothes and such custom, it wouldn't take to long.

And making custom monsters and such can't take more than an hour, at least not the sprite-sized ones that does not require so much shading.

But chipsets and the like will need to be corrected and fit perfectly in order for the mapmakers to actually be able to use them to their full skills.

Just speaking out of my own mind, I began with a game where I used more or less just custom graphipcs(not including chipsets) and it went fine, I just got stuck on the programing and map making as it never turned out the way I wanted it.