9/11

[X_marks_the_ed]

See, I hate topics like this. If you want to hold your head in sorrow over the events that happened here, you could do that at your job/school/where ever, but I wouldn't expect someone to do it in an international area such as a forum. I'd say that maybe 50% of the active members here are American?

I know this forum is a bunch of lame "People should die cuzs theys be ruiningz teh earthzors" and stuff, and then there are a bunch of "any death, no matter how it occured, is terrible" 's out there.... but come on. This happened seven years ago, I'm sure that the people who've lost family have moved on... and so should we who it didn't directly effect.

If the events of 9/11 did in fact effect someone here in a way other than by making them wait longer at the airpoint, sorry for my insensitivity towards your loss.

You don't know how much my respect for you has just skyrocketed.

[Meiscool-2]

If you think we went to war in the "middle east" because of 9/11 you should really educate yourself on current events.

[Dragonium]

I'm going to step out here and risk being the idiot tea-swilling Brit who doesn't understand that America is, like, the world.

While I must take the viewpoint that any death is a tragedy, 9/11 has become hugely overblown. If it were a simple paying of respects, it might mean something to me, but it's just huge now. For one, there have been countless other tragedies and terrorist attacks in which many people have died, and they're usually forgotten. No loss of life should be more important or more long-remembered than any other.

Secondly, it's as much about America standing together against the people who oppose it than about the loss of life. As long as it's remembered as a massive event there will always be that underlying resentment for the people who hijacked the planes, and that just fuels the war more. Afghan citizens are being bombed and shot by Allied troops all the time. We don't pay our respects to them, because they're the damn towelheads and some people from their country killed some US folks.

People die. It might be a terrorist attack, it might be a work accident, it might be a heart attack, it might be old age. But if you're going to remember it far longer than you ought to, at least don't pin it on patriotism.

[Meiscool-2]

Just for future reference: 19 citizens from Saudi Arabia, NOT Iraq and NOT Afghanistan, hijacked the planes during the 9/11 events. THERE SHOULD BE NO LINK BETWEEN THE BATTLES OCCURING IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND SEPTEMBER 11th 2001.

[Almeidaboo]

Well, I wasn't gonna say anything, but...I'm with Prpl_Mage here.

I'll TRY to be brief.

The 9/11 episode wasn't half as tragic as the Thailand tsunami. Why? Because the Tsunami was not the victims' fault. 9/11 had a reason, I'm not gonna get into it cause I don't really care either.

But, "as things are right now in the world", big comotion about something that was clearly coming, caused by a ideology that proved profitable, is made a big deal of, bigger than other countries tragedies. This happens and it's a "big offense and attack to liberty and freedom". Armenian genocide means nothing.

No nukes have been found in Iraq till now.

EDIT: Shino, we much as we are all friends here, you shouldn't be afraid or concerned about showing your true feelings strongly. I say you discuss, speak your mind, put YOUR version on the table and get it off yourself. It's not like people will keep hard feelings, it's a international forum, but it's free right? Plus, if people DO keep hard feelings, what's the deal? Suposedly, we're not capable of understanding other peoples POV, because of a simple reference issue.

I spoke my mind, as I see the facts from outside. We got our tragedies here too, but people see Brasil as a big big jungle. I mean, remember Blanka? In Twisted Metal II, the Amazonia scenario had volcanos.
9/11 will happen again.

[Razor]

Quick, probably offensive question: would it be as important if those 3000 odd people were killed over 7 years than all at once?
Because if you're going to honour the dead, I don't think you should omit all those dudes killed in the war(s?).

Because the Tsunami was not the victims' fault.

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

It wasn't just Americans in those towers, and I highly doubt most of them "had it coming".

[Almeidaboo]

OH NO YOU DIDN'T

It wasn't just Americans in those towers, and I highly doubt most of them "had it coming".

Point is: the grief is not for "the people in there", but for the Americans that were there. There could be people from Afeghanistan, or Iraq or Oz working there, but they wqere not the "offended ones". Get my point?

[Razor]

Did you just group my country with Afghanistan and Iraq
I kiiiiid.

But I'm sure to say EVERY AMERICAN ONLY CARES ABOUT THE AMERICANS WHO DIED is at the least a bit offensive.

[drenrin2120]

I'm sorry, Shino, but I kind of feel obligated to side with Meiscool and the rest. What happened on 9/11 was a terrible thing, everyone can agree on that. But to say it was worse than the death of those from natural causes is just harsh and said more out of rage for America being attacked than actual logic. If you want to crunch numbers, let's crunch numbers.

9/11 Death toll: 2,752
War in Iraq Death Toll: 4155 (this is only Americans)
War in Afghanistan Death Toll: 513 (US troops) 3,485 (Afghan Civilians) 8,587 (Afghan Troops)
Thailand Tsunami Death toll: 114,573 (confirmed deaths) Another some 100,000 missing

9/11 was tragic, but a death is a death. Whether natural or not, and technically those who died in the Tsunami did not expect to die, just as the people in the World Trade Centers did not expect to die. So, if you really want to say the people on 9/11 should be remembered simply because the people in those buildings were meant to die, I find hard to understand why you don't think even other victims of the so-called "result" of 9/11 should be remembered. The death toll from the Iraq and Afghanistan wars is many times greater than that of 9/11. And in saying, I include not the death "insurgents". I include US Soldiers, reporters, Iraq and Afghan civilians, men, children, women.

And you wonder why the world hates us. Because of gun-totin', believe anything Uncle Same pulls out of his ***, rednecks like you.

You wanted someone to bring up the 9/11 conspiracy, Rev? Well, I will. Do I believe that the American government attacked its own citizens? No, not necessarily. Do I find reason to be suspicious? Yes. The fact that I myself, and almost certainly all of you, can not say for certain what happened on 9/11 and who did or why, scares me. That doubt in the back of heads should not be simply ignored, but honestly, what can we do?

What it comes down to, is the majority of Americans are ****ing dumb. We elected a big oil man twice and fought a war in a country that had no connection to us or 9/11. Or you could choose to believe in the Zeitgeist story, it's all the same really. We got screwed, and it makes me really pissed when I see people pumpin' their fists for war and ready to kill some dirty sand-niggers.

I don't have answers, I won't pretend to. I have just as many questions as any of you. That's really all, I guess. Sorry for the wall o' text. And sorry for calling you a redneck, Shino.

[Meiscool-2]

Will you guys stop comparing the Tsunami to 9/11?

Yes, in effect, the Tsunami did more damage. Yes, it killed more, yes it will cost more money to repair the homes, and yes it laid waste to a larger area.

You're all missing the point that the Tsunami WASN'T a direct attack on anyone. 9/11 DIDN'T have to happen. It was caused by MAN. The Tsunami event was caused by NATURE, something that we CAN'T CONTROL.

Right now, when put bluntly and very simply, you are comparing Murder to Natural Selection.

And shino.... your post before Dren's is horrible. Saying that an entire country should be wasted because of the actions of a few is totally ignorant and, in fact, the exact same as being one of the terrorists who attacked the towers just because they are under the impression that all Americans act like the negative sterotype.

[Meiscool-2]

You can't blame me for thinking you ment more than you actually did. Especially when you use terms like "all the motherfuckers" and "support the idea at all".

[Almeidaboo]

The point we're trying to make here is: BOTH are tragedies, big ones. One is larger than the other, but it doesn't matter, because it's natural for Americans to feel worse about 9/11 than the Tsunami. No one's stupid here, everyone can see this.

The thing, in the first place, is: although one tragedy was bigger than another, every single leaf that falls in USA ground is always a bigger deal than the whole Amazon Forest being wiped out. One american is worth thousands of people, and even so it does not have the same repercussion.

Prpl_Mage meant this: the tragedy that happened in 9/11 is focused way too much, when other tragedies that also happened, many times even bigger, are forgotten. That's all because USA is the bellybutton.

It's NOT a "**** them, I don't care if they died" thing. Of course everyone cares, violence is never cool. But let's give every single tragedy the same importance. If I hated the USA people I'd never be here losing my time to make a point.

I understand, Shino, that you feel bad (i was going for the word "hard", but giving a second thought...) about this, and that you're joining the military and stuff. But please, as a inteligent man, don't be blindfolded. The military also commits acts of atrocity and, most of the time, mistakes. Taking another's life is something that need a lot of thought before, you can't let your "emotions" drive you into hatred or vengeance feelings.

I said it: no nukes have yet been found. The Iraq war is totally unexcusable and unfunded. That's not how you proceed when it comes to killing others.

And remember one last thing: when they're in charge, they fake, they lie and manipulate. And that's worldwide. Do not be a killing pawn for your govenment, make your decisions base on a perception that considers absolutely everything around you.

EDIT: Meis, I just saw your post. No attack should ever happen to another country, and I'm with you on that. But your attitude defines the reactions upon you, and the USA acted as much as it could to suffer an attack like that. And it's still acting. That's why you gotta do what you can to change it.

Here in Brasil we got plenty of stuff the whole world will need, and soon: water, natural materials, etc. Still we've never suffered any attacks, only because we do not attack anyone. I don't hate people that do not cause me harm. I dislike the one's that do. When it comes to nations, the "hate that" ideology gets spread, and fast. And 9/11 is what happens.

[Revolution911]

Idk who said it, but I recall reading something about THOSE "REDNECKS" WOULD DIE FOR THIS COUNTRY, which I thought was pretty stupid. 

People who dont know any better will die for alot of things.

Blind Patriotism aint cool man. 

Nationalism is stupid anyway.  We're all humans.


Shino, I have a feeling that if you were born in Iraq, you'd be an extremist.

[Meiscool-2]

EDIT: Meis, I just saw your post. No attack should ever happen to another country, and I'm with you on that. But your attitude defines the reactions upon you, and the USA acted as much as it could to suffer an attack like that. And it's still acting. That's why you gotta do what you can to change it.

Here in Brasil we got plenty of stuff the whole world will need, and soon: water, natural materials, etc. Still we've never suffered any attacks, only because we do not attack anyone. I don't hate people that do not cause me harm. I dislike the one's that do. When it comes to nations, the "hate that" ideology gets spread, and fast. And 9/11 is what happens.

What? I'm having a hard time understanding this. All I'm picking up from it is a "You attack other countries, you deserve this" but I'm pretty sure you don't mean that. Clear that up for me.

Secondly, American has never 'attacked' anyone prior to the invasion in Iraq. Any military acts we have undergone were either retorts from oppression (Korean War, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Revolutionary War, etc. ) or direct attacks made on us (World War I and World War II). The only 'attacks' that we might've done to the Middle East to warent any sort of hate were comedic remarks about their culture, which I in no way will apologize for because that is Freedom Of Speech and a right given at birth.

The only reason why Brazil hasn't been involved in a war is because you're people don't have that will. When another country is in peril, we aid them. The Strong should hold up the Weak. We've sacraficed our own blood in the past to perserve the rights of those we don't even know, because we believe that all humans are born equal and should be given equal rights as such.

"I don't hate people that don't cause ME harm" selfish. If there is an oppressive force out there preventing YOU from holding true to your God given rights, you sure as hell better believe that the American military would be there to assit YOU in YOUR (not our) fight to regain freedom. It is ever so nice to know that you would do the same for us.

[Revolution911]

America has never issued a direct attack, but we've definitely done out fair share of provoking attacks.  Not that 9/11 was provoked, but still we're so far from the angels you're painting us to be here, meis.  I dont think we'd aid another country if it was in peril either.  Not unless there was some benefit for us in it.

We're all selfish