Gender Confusion?

[SaiKar]

This is sort of becoming a distressingly common topic on this forum.

[Archem]

People who hold views like Archem's and Drace's are directly responsible for so many deaths.

You're right. I'm a killer. I am a monster. Oh God, how terrible I am. How dare I tell someone they're born the way they are.

Also:

also, jesus, it's not about the ****ing surgery.

Soooo should I just save up and go under the knife

Just sayin'.

[Meiscool]

SRS is NOT cosmetic surgery.

A huge portion of it is. Rhinoplasty, face-lifting, lip enhancement, facial bone reduction, blepharoplasty, breast augmentation, liposuction of the waist (body contouring), reduction thyroid chondroplasty, hair removal, voice modification surgery (laryngoplasty or shortening of the vocal cords), and skin resurfacing, which have been used in feminization, are considered cosmetic. Similarly, chin implants, nose implants, and lip reduction, which have been used to assist masculinization, are considered cosmetic. Most insurance companies will tell you this.

In a literal sense, the morphing of tissue to change from one genitalia to another is both cosmetic and mechanical surgery; appearance is prioritized over preserving function, but functionality is modified.

In my mind, if something is functioning correctly and you want it changed, then the changes become cosmetic. Now, if a male were to have an issue where every time he achieved orgasm the sperm does not properly leave the penis (I know a dude with this issue) and he had surgery to become a woman, one could argue that the surgery is more than cosmetic.

[Razor]

This is sort of becoming a distressingly common topic on this forum.

Welcome to 2015. The internet is tumblr now.

[Meiscool]

If something bothers someone to the point where they are unable to function and often consider hurting themselves or even commiting suicide due to extreme dysphoria, SRS becomes a necessary medical procedure.

I'm sure there are just as many individuals out there that refuse to be active and/or hurt/kill themselves because society makes them feel ugly for being flat/fat/unslightly/hairy/etc. A procedure to correct those issues is equal to SRS be your own wording, and such procedures are cosmetic.

As for the brain thing.... Ellie, your brain may tell yourself you're a female. Society tells you you're a female. The internet may side with you that you are female. The doctors who worked on you tell you you're female. Your genetics say you are a male. That lump of flesh, full of DNA, says 'male'. Male and female can be changed into abstract concepts to fit certain terminology and situations, yes, but do not forget that there is a literal definition for these terms based on DNA. You're right that "surgery to become a woman" isn't a thing, because it is impossible. I was using a generalized statement.

I don't wish to prove you wrong that SRS isn't important, make you feel bad about yourself, hurt you, etc. But, and I feel others would agree with me on this, you are a bit overzealous when it comes to these kind of topics and you say things that are trying to fight a war that isn't there. Phrases like cosmetic, mutilation, psychiatrist, etc all seem to be trigger words for you placing you in a defensive stance, when really no offense or insult was behind those words. SRS is comparable to several other kinds of surgery, but since it is very important to you and the other types not so important, you feel that you must validate it. It may save a life (preventing a person from killing themselves), but it is not life-saving surgery (removing a bullet from the chest), and you don't need to be so passionate about it that you treat it as such.

[drenrin2120]

It should be pointed out that every single one of those links Drace posted as citations proving his argument are full of logical fallacies.

For one, you posted an article that talks about regretting cosmetic surgery... not at all linked to trans-issues. It doesn't even mention transgender anywhere in the article. The rest of the links are single isolated incidents of people who have SRS who shouldn't have. That's called cherry-picking. One story the guy admits to taking the psychiatric tests multiple times and eventually figuring out how to lie to get SRS when he clearly shouldn't have.

The only reputable article that proved anything, didn't prove any argument you were making. The cohort study from Sweden concluded, "Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

The study never posits why that is the case only that more research into post-surgery therapy and adjustment could help alleviate the problem. In fact, it's even stated on the site that the only purpose of the study was simply to collect data. So the causes for a rise in mortality in post-SRS patients compared to their non-SRS counterparts could be wide-ranging and aren't necessarily inherent in the data. Regret? Shame? Do these suicides constitute the number of people who purposefully bypass tests or lie to get SRS? Or maybe malpractice? or are post SRS-patients more likely to be the targets of violence, harassment, or discrimination leading to suicidal tendencies or death by homicide?

Honestly, at this point, your insistence that you are only trying to speak truth and have an honest debate falls pretty hollow when the only thing of substance you've said is that comment about 'smaug the terrible', which is as abhorrently ignorant as some Christian Evangelical comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality. If this conversation makes you so uncomfortable that you're unable to participate in it without throwing insults around at people who didn't ask for your opinion, then why bother?

What about this article here?
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2004/jul/30/health.mentalhealth

All over the internet, I find links to this and similar articles which arrive to the same conclusion from pro- and anti-transgender sites and groups. It shows that, while patients who receive SRS are more likely to commit suicide or be murdered, causes for suicide are officially 'unknown', as in, there isn't any conclusive evidence to suggest one way or the other. Which leaves it to the realm of talking heads and academia. Anecdotal evidence is emotionally evocative, but in most cases, we'd all agree it's not very conclusive.

Which kind of speaks to a point, there's a lot of misinformation out there about trans-issues because no one is really doing any research on it. The FBI only recently started collecting data on trans-related murders and incidents, and like most data they collect, it can be heavily dependent on local Police Departments unreliable reporting practices. What I'm saying is, there's a lot of bias out there with no one fact-checking anyone else.

[zuhane]

Maybe we should lock this thread and let Zoltar start a new one...

[Dr. Ace]

Applause to Drenrin, who took his time to write a chapter on sources I took three minutes to collect.

For one, you posted an article that talks about regretting cosmetic surgery... not at all linked to trans-issues.

See earlier arguments I and other have given. I see it as cosmetic surgery, thus it related.

single isolated incidents of people who have SRS who shouldn't have

Did you take your time to read the original post as well as mine? This is the entire reason I posted sources like these. Not because they are great proof that SRS is wrong, but because it hits close to someone's sudden decision to say, and I quote, "Soooo should I just save up and go under the knife".

The study never posits why that is the case only that more research into post-surgery therapy and adjustment could help alleviate the problem. In fact, it's even stated on the site that the only purpose of the study was simply to collect data.

True, but all in all it doesn't seem to make them any more happy than before, based on the data.

you are only trying to speak truth

Ahem. "Stop acting like opinions", "I just can't agree". I've been stating my opinions, not the absolute truth. My opinions are harsh, but well meant. He asks for advice, I gave him my advice. My advice being that he seeks psychiatric help. I've not said: "SRS is wrong because I say so." I have said scientifically proven stuff such as "You can change your fenotype but it will remain a male genotype".

smaug the terrible

I said Smaug the Tremendous.

which is as abhorrently ignorant as some Christian Evangelical comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality.

No. Feeling like you've been born in the wrong body (be a woman in a man's body, or a dragon in a man's body) is not the same ignorance as stating same-sex marriage is the same as inter-species sex. I've stated I don't care what he doubts about, I said he should get help. Don't try to rub my crude phrasing as "abhorrent ignorance alike Christian Evangelicals" when it isn't.

If this conversation makes you so uncomfortable

I'm not uncomfortable, I gave my honest opinion (get professional help).

you're unable to participate in it without throwing insults around at people who didn't ask for your opinion

1) The first insult taken was by a neutral word, namely mutilation.
2) Look at my other posts, I'm an ***hole. I throw insults at you for liking the newest Pokémon so I won't change because this is a more sensitive subject.
3) My opinion was asked. I quote: "I'd like your opinion before I make any decision."

the last three paragraphs

I agree, there should be more research done. But without it, we're going to have to look at isolated cases. Which, again, is something that is relevant to the decision Zoltar is trying to make. To save up money to go under the knife. Which, again, I advice he gets professional help for.

EDIT: To make it clear, so maybe you understand, I'm not forcing my opinions upon Zoltar. What he shouldn't do is listen to transgenders and think it's the best thing ever. What he also shouldn't do is listen to anti-SRS (myself included) and think it's an abomination. What he should do, is get professional help to figure out what he wants. All arguments aside, all opinions aside, all proof aside, he needs help of a neutral professional (preferably even more) who can help him figure out what he actually wants before making rash decisions of either side. He shouldn't do the operation because he's had a moment of doubt, and he shouldn't not do the operation because people don't agree with it. He should get professional help.

[Moosetroop11]

Ellie's right that the official channels to get the hormones and such are incredibly difficult to get approved for, let alone final surgery. Having said that people often get the hormones illegally so that isn't a complete safeguard.

From what I know these feelings brew inside you most of your life and make you miserable until you can't even think of the alternative; you have to change gender. So if this is a recent thing I wouldn't act on it too hard. Maybe talk to a councillor as people said if you're really feeling weird about it.

[drenrin2120]

I admittedly skimmed a lot of posts and repeated things some people already said. Sorry it was too long a post, I guess? muh bad

I do agree, the first step is seeking professional help so Zoltar can better be informed on how to proceed forward, what the options are, and get support. Considering only roughly 20% of people who identify as Trans go through with the surgery, I find it suspicious that it has become the central focus of the topic. My point in bringing up the cosmetic article is it was specifically talking about people who regretted getting cosmetic surgery for superficial reasons, such as disliking the shape of their nose, size of their boobs, etc. Whatever. It's obviously a completely different group of people as opposed to those getting SRS or hormone replacement therapy for gender identity issues and thus had relation to the topic, regardless if some transgender people get cosmetic surgery afterwards. Comparing the two as if they are one in the same is offensive and illogical. You can think SRS is cosmetic surgery all you want, I won't debate you on that because I don't think I'm gonna change your mind, but HRT is most certainly not merely cosmetic if at all.

And just because you don't like or agree with the analogy doesn't make it any less true. Homophobes also believe that they're just trying to help or it's just their opinion or just the way they were raised, yet no one's buying their excuses. It's a backhanded remark. You've given actually useful advice and then you ruin it by making an off the cuff mark about SRS being genital mutilation. And when someone calls you out on it, you claim 'just my opinion' or that 'you've been an ***hole for as long as forever so it doesn't matter'. Yes, you are being an ***hole. That is exactly the point. At least we agree that Zoltar needs guidance going forward.

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread, Zoltar. And Zuhane, I have no intentions of locking the thread just because the debate got a bit heated, unless Zoltar requests it. I think everyone on Charas is aware by now that this is a touchy subject for a lot of the members here. I don't see the point in pretending it isn't.

[Archem]

Considering only roughly 20% of people who identify as Trans go through with the surgery, I find it suspicious that it has become the central focus of the topic.

Literally the central focus of the OP. That's the reason.

[SaiKar]

I don't see the point in pretending it isn't.

Peace of mind

[Zoltar]

Can somebody please lock this thread? I don't want to create tension and hate.  I'm just going to talk to Ellie in private like I should have to begin with. But thank you all for your positive opinions, those of you who gave them anyways.

[Archem]

Tension? Sure. Hate? Not likely. We're basically a family here, and even though we can have heated debates over controversial topics, we're all still close in the end. Still, in compliance with your wishes, this thread is hereby LOCKED.