An Official *English* Version of 2k3 Approaches!

[Ben]

I this JesusIsMe pretty muchs summed it up.

I fail to see how not sharing your opinion constituates "Douchiness". I respect that your opinion is not mine. I've stated my case.  I would kindly ask that you respect that I am also entitled to my opinion. An edited chatlog pasted into a forum thread is not going to change my mind at all


"people like you" is a pretty judgemental term to use here. I would have paid. I have a paid edition of Game maker, and two of AGM, and a StencylPro and iOS account on the way. I think Im pretty confident in saying I spend a good deal of money of development tools.
I dont give my money to enterbrain, because they did not value me as a customer. And it seems to me that by alienating so many fans in english speaking contries for this long, they kind of dug their own grave in north america as far as 2k3 is concerned. They never released it here ititially because they werent sure if it would catch on. If it was for fear of piracy, they wouldnt have developed the toolset to begin with.

[Kaiterra_]

I fail to see how not sharing your opinion constituates "Douchiness". I respect that your opinion is not mine. I've stated my case.  I would kindly ask that you respect that I am also entitled to my opinion. An edited chatlog pasted into a forum thread is not going to change my mind at all

You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't mean it is a valid opinion. It doesn't mean that holding steadfast to that opinion in the face of solid logical evidence against it isn't ignorance. It doesn't mean you can just refute facts by saying you have an opinion that differs with them and expect people to respect that.

[Meiscool]

The customer's opinions are the ones that matter in the end. If you like the product and want it, great. If another does not want the product however, it is good business to take their opinions into consideration. They are both valid.

As previously stated, you've heard the majority of the opinions on the matter. You can throw whatever logic at us you want: it really won't change how we feel.

[Ben]

Yeah, were going to have to agree to disagree.

These "facts" are pretty subject to circumstance, and frankly at this point, until the word is given that the project is a go, they are not facts, they are at best speculation and conjecture. Chat logs. Fan speculation. A poll to determine public interest is not a fact. It is a poll. To determine public interest. If I were to start a petition to have battletoads remade for PS3, and am told that somebody will officially back the project if I garner enough public interest, it does not make it a fact. The only fact at play is that essentially some dudes want to make an official english version, and EB has said "Uh...sure... if we make money off it, and we dont have to do the work, go for it"

It does not matter how many people you bring into the discussion from whatever rm community you call home, the general consensus is that we, for the most part, don't see it being all that great of an Idea.

Perhaps another member has something to say to the contrary, but until then, youre going to have to just come to terms with the fact that we do not think this is as awesome as you do.

My opinion is as valid as yours. To say otherwise is simply ignorant.


EDIT: additionally, all credit that chat log might have given your argument is gone as soon as somebody says "We can sell our RM games legally now". Good luck with that....I mean finding somebody to pay money for an rm2k3 game. Im sure it happens, but frankly, the people who pay for that sort of thing are the developers aunties and friends. Unless the game exports into a format that is compatible with online gaming portals, or mobile development, your five dollar indy made rm game, is going to look pretty stupid, numbers wise, when compared with an iOS or android compatible flash java or unity game that is free to play, fan/indy/hobbist/amatuer made, and supported by a development community that is using software that is not paleolithic.

[Prpl_Mage]

Yeah once again. Doing this for nostalgia, having a legal copy and whatever fear comes from using pirated material just isn't enough 9 years later. I remember that a forum contacted the peeps who developed 2k3 and asked them if they would release an english version back in the days. They were merely met with rudeness like "How can you tell if it was a great product unless you pirated it?" And crap. So we weren't listened to back then, back when we actually used it a lot.
So we're not gonna get excited about this. You're not succesfull in convincing us, feels more like you're trying to talk us into it now.

But good luck elsewhere and that you'll find people who share you view

[drenrin2120]

01[18:09] <Libby> like, coverall in the term of they don't mind that it was translated to english or that you use cherry's edits
 01[18:10] <Libby> for that one program
[18:10] <@***Star***> that's against the EULA
[18:10] <@***Star***> if they're going to do that
[18:10] <@***Star***> might as well make rm2k/2k3
[18:10] <@***Star***> open source code
 01[18:10] <Libby> I know, but it would be nice for the older programs
[18:10] <@***Star***> which could hurt them
 01[18:10] <Libby> or even just for the english version
[18:11] <@***Star***> with that you're going to put potential future sales into trobule
[18:11] <@***Star***> since if it's open source code
[18:11] <@***Star***>  al ot of people can copy the code and improvise it
 01[18:11] <Libby> okay, so here's an english version. You're covered only if it's a translated version with no add ons
[18:11] <@***Star***> and make their own engines out of it
[18:11] <@***Star***> libby with that you're pretty much saying go ahead and hack our program
 01[18:11] <Libby> even that would be awesome
 01[18:11] <Libby> no, just translate it
[18:11] <@***Star***> it's still hacking
[18:11] <@***Star***> the program
 01[18:11] <Libby> if people want to hack it, nothing will stop them anyway
[18:12] <@***Star***> yeah but at least you can sue them

I mean, atleast they're being honest, but seriously, **** corporations and **** Enterbrain.

[Archem]

Just stepping in to remind everyone to be polite in this discussion. I see it's getting a bit heated, and my CTRL+F powers picked up on "douchiness", so I'm just concerned that things might take off in a negative way.

Now that I've done my obligation as a moderator, I'm off to another adventure in some distant land (running on a more modern development engine). Hoof!

[fruckert]

Christ, that was a lot of bitching.

I...can't add anything to the topic.
Everything that CAN be said about this has been.
There are far, far better indy/hobbiest dev tools to throw your money at, as well as some free ones if you're adventurous and don't mind learning actual code (XNA/MonoGame, Unity, etc.).
Spending money on an old dinosaur like 2k3 isn't really a smart idea, and I'm fairly positive after the initial "hype" dies down after about a month, Enterbrain is going to agree with that sentiment [sp].

Seriously, just get Game Maker, or Stencyl, or something like that.

[Ben]

How much do those both cost to use, one may ask.

20 dollars less than an edition of RM2k3 that hasnt been given the green light yet.


BOOYA

[A Forgotten Legend]

I think I would buy it.  I dunno, I just think that I would.

[Archem]

I only pirated things because I could never buy them. When I was younger my parents would never give me money to pay for things online, whatever kind of things they might be. Games were just something I was not allowed to spend money on.
But, guess what, I'm older now, and I've been doing some jobs here and there, and I have my own money to spend on things that I like.

Alright, alright, I won't harp on about the subject any further.

...

[Moosetroop11]

Alright, alright, I won't harp on about the subject any further.

...

You're kidding!

Scandal.

[Liberty]

Probably not worth posting here but for those who are interested:

FAQ
Why now? Why not 10 years ago? (Edited to update facts.)
The simple answer? Because the community itself shot down any attempts EB tried at legalizing the product. After XP's release no one bothered asking for it.
The complete answer? Degica only took over the publishing of EB! products at the advent of XP. Up until that time Protexus was the publisher and they weren't really concerned with the English community. When Degica took over, they reached out to the Western community. It's thanks to them (and Agetec - the publishers of the console RMs who showed EB! that there was a market for RM product here) that we have any English makers at all. They also hadn't thought that it would be appreciated, so until a fan actually asked about it...
When they were asked they said, sure, let's see how much demand there is and if there's enough we'll do that.


Is it worth it for them to do this? Aren't they just wasting money that could be better spent on other things?
To quote Touchfuzzy, Admin of the official RM site:

I'm going to use variables because I have no idea exact costs. Let's say we have Project 1 and Project 2.

Project 1 costs x to produce, and brings in 10x

Project 2 costs 2x to produce, and brings in 10x

If we do just Project 1 we make 9x, if we do just Project 2 we make 8x. If we did BOTH projects, we could make 17x.

Hence why if something sounds like we will make x's we will find the money to do it. Also, translating 2k3 if it does work out, could make a good deal of money as it has low costs comparatively to bring over, that could be used to FUND other projects.

In other words, the money they make back on this can be used to make other projects, like more resources for the newer makers. How is it a waste of their time to hire a few translators to make an English version of a game that might net them some profit back from a product they missed out on thanks to a shoddy publisher?

Why should we pay for something we already have?
There are two main reasons and they both boil down to ethics.
The first is that it's illegal to use the engine. Okay, get the laughter out of your system. I'll wait.

Seriously though, supporting the system that has been loved and used so much over the years is a great thing. It makes you feel better, for one, and encourages Degica to listen to the fans about what they want, for two. Me, I like the idea of owning RM2K3. I like the thought that I've given back to the people who had such a large part of my youth. I remember the first time I even found out there was an RPG Maker and how awesome it was, thinking that I'd be able to make my own game, just like the ones I'd played in my childhood. I love the idea of giving something back for that.

Another reason is the RTP. Currently, unless you bought the Japanese version, using the RTP in any engine is illegal. Remember that RTP is sounds as well as graphics. The legal usage of a selection of music and sound effects... do I need to quote how much it costs to 'buy' music to use that flows and fits together? Hundreds, if not thousands of dollars. Seriously.

Owning the program. In English. Legally. This means, barring any rips or other illegal content, you may sell your game.

Xp/VX/VXA are better! Also, do 2k instead!
That's not a question, but I'll respond anyway. Yes, they're better in a lot of ways, but for those looking to push themselves when it comes to eventing, for those who are new to the programs, for those who like old school RPG charm? 2k3 is a better bet.
2k... well, as much as I love 2k, 2k3 offers something that NONE of the other makers have. A default side-view battle system. Also, better eventing.

How much will this cost? They should add extra stuff!
I put these two together because they relate. Firstly, they've said right out that the cost would be set at $20. Not too bad, eh? This is a program in English and the RTP for use in any other engine. Neato~

Adding extra stuff would just drive up the price and make things harder on their end. A translation, maybe a bug fix for the agility issue... That's what they're offering. They aren't going to recode a whole new engine, they aren't going to add scripting features or higher resolution or redo the graphical side of the RTp or add self switches (;. because doing so would take away from their other projects and drive up the price.

But what about patches and things like Cherry's support programs? Aren't they illegal?
Yes, of course they are. To make the patches they had to mess with the source code of the game and that is against the EULA. That said, it's like using rips. It's illegal, but as long as you're not trying to sell the game and waving big red flags, Degica isn't likely to be bothered prosecuting you for it. I mean, how many prosecutions have there been with the pirated version? Or even with VX games that use the Tile Swap patch? I can think of two, perhaps, and those were really popular and well-known outside of the community.
It's like editing rom files. The companies won't go out of their way to police it unless someone throws up a flare of some sort (That one Chrono Trigger fangame comes to mind.)

Is this official or are you just trying to gather support for a cause that has no chance of occurring?
This is official. If 1000 signatures are raised, Degica will do this. Why? Because a fan asked. How awesome is that?

Any other questions? Just ask.

Also? This.

Thanks to Iddalai for making it.

[Ben]

There is next to zero market to sell 2k3 games. Your whole flow chart, and half of your argument depend on a theoretical "DONT YOU WANT TO SELL YOUR GAMES?!?"

The graphics and sound in the rtp have become the visual symbol for placeholder graphics in the world of indie RPG development. I made a post earlier about "the only people that but rpg maker games are the developers aunties and friends" Developers, publishers, enthusiast and hobby devs all look at things made with those graphics and UI and sounds, and make an instant judgement, wether you care to admit it or not. the judgment falls on the side of one of two scenarios
"If the developer had spent a tenth the time on gameplay as they did trying to make an overcomplicated game world and story this would be the best game ever" or
"Aww. thats cute. Junior made a toy"

 You just listed all of these "facts", but its not a fact, if you've tainted it with opinion. Honestly, I hope your petition goes well. Because after you shell out your 20 dollars, so that you can ride your high horse around the RPGM world, sales of games made with rpg maker are never, ever, ever, ever going to be comprable to games made with other engines.

[Liberty]

Yes, yes, we get it. You're not buying. Proceed to live your life as usual.